Arts

RuPaul will host ‘Lingo’ for CBS

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Rupaul to Host Lingo

By Romeo San Vicente

You can probably chalk this up to the current online “Wordle” craze, but America’s most famous drag queen, RuPaul, is about to crash CBS’s primetime lineup with an updated version of the vintage ’80s series “Lingo.” After multiple iterations of the game show – in which contestants guess five-letter words to fill a bingo-like grid – aired in the United States, and after versions in other countries have kept going strong for decades, CBS is ready to revive it for primetime later in the year. It’s perfect timing, and, as for centering RuPaul as the host, that’s another no-brainer. He is, after the late Alex Trebek and alongside “Price is Right” vet Drew Carey, among America’s most beloved game show hosts. Now, we hope he hosts in drag but we’re guessing he won’t, most likely to insure that this show and “RuPaul’s Drag Race” stay in their own lanes. But honestly, it’ll probably be because a properly flawless Ru look takes hours and Mr. Charles is a very busy man.

Josie Totah Leads the Trans Charge on TV

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Josie Totah

The former Disney star talks LGBTQ+ relatability on ‘Saved by the Bell’ and what’s next for trans representation
Chris Azzopardi

If you were expecting more of the same from “Saved by the Bell” when Peacock revived the series in 2020, you wouldn’t just be mistaken — you’d be pleasantly surprised. 

A staple of TV for a generation of teens, the show, which originally ran from 1989 to 1993, has undergone a woke update that, this season, includes a powerful trans storyline. 

Yep, in 2021, Bayside High now naturally reflects the world as we know it. And so there’s Lexi, the popular girl who just happens to be transgender. No big deal. At least that’s how the show treats it, and how former Disney star Josie Totah, the 20-year-old trans actor known for roles on “Glee,” the NBC comedy “Champions” and the Disney Channel series “Jessie,” prefers it. 

Recently, Totah spoke about the important message for trans allies in the show’s latest season of “Saved by the Bell” and how she thinks trans representation on TV has finally started to depict transgender people in a relatable and authentic way. 

This is not the “Saved by the Bell” I grew up with when it comes to LGBTQ+ representation. What does it mean to you to be a major part of that kind of representation on this more evolved and more queer-inclusive revival that’s far less hetero-centric than the original?

It’s awesome. Our show is so funny, and we get to tell so many cool stories that [weren’t] told in the original that are [relevant] to conversations that we’re having today, that represent people who’ve been around since the inception of time. And it’s awesome. It’s such a privilege. 

Have you gone back and watched any original episodes of “Saved by the Bell”? I just wonder how you interpret the conversations that were being had then versus the conversations that are a part of this reimagining.

Yeah, we went back and watched it as a cast. I mean, I had seen the show before just in its rerun phase in the early 2000s. I feel like that was a very big thing. I really based my character on the classic “Mean Girls” trope that we all know and love, and [I] flipped it on its head and gave her some surgery to make her very interesting and cool. Less stereotypically basic.

Being a part of this show was so important to you that you put school off to be a part of it. Can you explain why?

Well, I put school off, and then school put me off because the pandemic happened. So I was ahead of the curve, but I’m still in college. Somehow, I’m still graduating in May. [Showrunner Tracey Wigfield] told me that she had an idea of a character that she wrote for me, and I fell in love. We met up at a coffee shop in downtown L.A., and she’s just so cool. I love that woman so, so much, and that’s sort of how it happened. It’s one of the best opportunities I ever said yes to. 

As a producer, can you talk about what kind of input you’re giving when it comes to LGBTQ+ representation on the show, specifically as it pertains to Lexi?

I got to sit in the writers’ room this season, which was so fun. I joined once or twice a week and sat in and had a great time. Just to get to be in the room with so many fantastic writers from so many different walks of life and getting to bring my own authentic journey and story to the show was awesome. And I think it [made] the story truer to real life and more entertaining because it was more unique, and there’s relatability. So getting to that was awesome, but also getting to be a part of the other stories that we get to tell, like Aisha [played by Alycia Pascual-Peña]; her journey through her life, particularly in episode seven, was super fun. I remember being in the writers’ room that week and getting to delve into that.

Episode five blew my mind, especially as a fan of the original series. If I would’ve seen episode five when I was a kid, it would’ve changed my life. How did the idea to explore Lexi dealing with a really serious incident of transphobia evolve? 

Tracey has been very cool from the beginning and she’s just like, “We can talk about however much you wanna talk about when it comes to Lexi’s gender identity.” It was clear to us that we wanted to tell a story that sort of delved into her identity in a way that was more nuanced, that we hadn’t been able to come to last season, and that also sort of progressed her arc as a character outside of her gender identity. I just had my second COVID vaccine at the time in March when we were pitching different things of how we would tell this story, and someone came up with an idea for Lexi to write a play that would solve transphobia, which I think is literally the funniest thing in the entire world. It just is a ridiculously beautiful episode in that way, and it’s so funny. 

It deals with a really important societal issue — who carries the burden of having to make change for the trans community when transphobia happens? How did that resonate with you on a personal level?

That’s just a very real thing when it comes to the burdening of trauma, and it’s crazy how people put the oppressed in charge of educating and solving things that everyone really should be working on. It was sick to get to tell it; it was very cool. And I’m glad that we show people probably how _not_ to be an asshole when it comes to things like that, and also how to be a better ally.

By the end of the episode, Lexi realizes that she’s got real support in her peers. But you also have Slater, played by Mario Lopez, on your side. You’ve got Jessie on your side. The original cast is advocating for you; they’re allies of the community, clearly. What kind of conversations did you have with the original cast concerning that episode when it came to any kind of LGBTQ+ issues and transphobia? 

None of the original cast, but Belmont [Cameli, as Jamie Spano], Dexter [Darden as Devante Young] and Alycia are some of my best friends in the entire world, and I’m so honored, particularly with Bel and Dex and Mitch Hoog [as Mac Morris], just to have three guys who are straight and cis and really understand me and see me for my full self and not just one part of me. But also recognizing that life is different for me. It’s so beautiful, and particularly with Bel and Dex just because they were in that episode the most. They’re just the most supportive guys ever. And I felt so loved and so privileged. It brought me to tears. We shared a lot of love, and I really felt like they were carrying me on their shoulders that week. 

It’s important for straight men to see that it’s cool when you stand up for people in the queer community. 

Yeah, it’s hot.

What was your high school experience like?

I mean, I went to a Catholic high school where I would call teachers by their first names and they’d be like, “Shut the hell up, sit down. My name is Sister Rebecca.” And I’d be like, “Becca.” I thought that I was really cool, but I wasn’t. [I was] kind of just this kid who people knew from the Disney Channel and they’re like, “That’s that weirdo.” 

Yeah, I was crazy, but I met two of my best friends there, and we’re still best friends to this day, and we survived. I think if you can survive Catholic high school with people, you’re with them forever. But also it was an awesome Catholic high school, I will say. Very supportive of gender diversity and sexual orientation, and they were very cool. I was very, very privileged to not have a toxic experience.

I grew up Catholic too, and you don’t hear that very often about the Catholic experience.

You really don’t, but they always told me, “Boo boo, like, you might be weird, but God created you. So we blame him and not you. And you’re meant to be who you’re meant to be.”

There’s obviously been so much talk over the years concerning trans representation. How can we improve the representation of trans characters in TV and film? And how do you think Lexi advances trans representation in a positive way?

First and foremost, it’s played by me, an actual trans person, which obviously is unfortunately revolutionary since so many of our stories have been appropriated and have been told by people who have no idea what the trans experience is like and have surrounded it with [the] negativity of violence. Also, I’m a producer, which is sick. Like, that’s amazing because I think it speaks to the authenticity in front of and behind the camera, which is very, very important. I’m not just being tokenized; I’m being listened to and I’m being valued, and it does change the show. It makes it better in my opinion, at least I’d hope, because it makes it more authentic. And I think that’s sort of the goal, right? Not just placing people in these positions to sort of fill a diversity hire, but valuing their experience and capitalizing on their experience and their willingness to share for the benefit of the story, which is awesome. It makes our show so good.

Like you mentioned, so many trans narratives _are_ told through the lens of trans struggle.

That’s important, but it’s also important to tell other stories too, because we’re fully encompassing human beings.

Do you see a change in how Hollywood is representing trans people that isn’t focused on trans struggle? 

I think we’re turning a corner, but I wanna see a trans rom-com of a girl starring in her own movie and living her best life. I wanna see an undercover spy movie where a trans girl has to travel to Bulgaria and take down a drug heist. There are so many different realms that I wanna see and I’m going to do. And I’m so excited that I get to be young and able and afforded that opportunity to throw my hat in the ring. I’m grateful that I’m living in this time, and I’m also excited to hopefully be able to tell other trans stories and other stories of people of color and people from different marginalized communities too, and highlighting their own journeys as well, which I think is very important.

Chris Azzopardi is the Editorial Director of Pride Source Media Group and Q Syndicate, the national LGBTQ+ wire service. He has interviewed a multitude of superstars, including Cher, Meryl Streep, Mariah Carey and Beyoncé. His work has also appeared in The New York Times, Vanity Fair, GQ and Billboard. Reach him via Twitter @chrisazzopardi.

Jonathan Van Ness Gets Curious

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Jonathan Van Ness

Jonathan Van Ness Gets Curious
The ‘Queer Eye’ grooming expert’s new Netflix show explores everything from bugs to being nonbinary
By Chris Azzopardi

Before I talk to Jonathan Van Ness about their new Netflix show, “Getting Curious with Jonathan Van Ness,” they take me on a little on-camera adventure that involves them “needing cuter light.”

They do a 180 with the computer. They swivel in their chair. “I need more natural light in my life, I’m sorry,” they say, still shifting and “getting comfortable.”

And then once they find that magical spot where the light hits their face in just the right place, the 34-year-old “Queer Eye” grooming expert grooms their computer, gently wiping the lens with a tissue. If you’re going to wear what they’re wearing — it appears to be a chiffon kaftan — you don’t want a dusty ol’ lens muddying its bright pink radiance, honey.

“I did an outfit change for you,” they say, having slipped into their new, flowier ensemble just before our interview.

Van Ness, who is also a children’s book author and one of just a few openly nonbinary public figures, rocks an entire closet of gender-nonconforming fashion on Season 6 of “Queer Eye,” which hit Netflix on New Year’s Eve 2021. On their new six-episode series, a TV adaptation of their podcast “Getting Curious with Jonathan Van Ness,” the multi-hyphenate even has an entire episode devoted to gender identity.

Featured in the episode, titled “Can We Say Bye-Bye to the Binary?,” are gender nonconforming activist Alok Vaid-Menon and Geo Neptune, the first two-spirit elected official in the state of Maine. With Van Ness, who says they hadn’t even heard the term nonbinary until the age of 30, Vaid-Menon and Neptune explore what their identity means to them and the history of our rigid gender binary. The show also intends to open up minds on other topics as well, such as why bugs aren’t so bad, figure skating’s minority barriers and, naturally, an entire episode on the history of coifs called “Why Is Hair So Major?”


All aglow through a freshly cleaned computer camera, Van Ness spoke to me about the “sense of ease” they feel now, a dream “Getting Curious” guest star they’re not sure they could form words around, and their very personal reason for being completely theirself around young queer people.

I watched a lot of “Getting Curious” yesterday and wanted to thank you for modeling curiosity, first of all. I think as adults we tend to lose our imagination and we just accept some things for the way that they are. Is that what you felt going into the show

Well, I started “Getting Curious,” the podcast, in 2015. I’ve always been someone who loves to learn, and I’m just a very curious person. And I clearly love talking. So the idea — wanting to understand the world around me better — has been something that’s existed within me for as long as I can remember. So that was definitely something that I wanted the opportunity to break down on the Netflix stage ’cause it’s a very big stage. 

And I wanted to bring a more visual, multi-medium, multifaceted world in which the podcast — but as a TV show — could live. So I’m just really excited that we got the opportunity and that Netflix believed in me enough and that we can go explore the world together. So I’m just really excited that I have the opportunity and I hope everyone loves it.

You mention Netflix being a big stage, which it is. Is that why you were like, “You know what? We are gonna do an entire episode devoted to nonbinary and gender nonconforming people”? 

Yeah. Being someone who is nonbinary is something that I think I’ve been my entire life. I only had language for it in these last few years. But the amount of trans misogyny that I’ve had to endure and live through in my own life pales in comparison to some of the trans misogyny that other people have had to go through within our community and within our trans community, specifically. 

However, I wanted to humanize us. And it’s not only my job to do this, obviously. But I wanted to have a time where we could talk and be together and learn together and just have that humanity, ’cause I think so often we are portrayed in this way that it’s just not human. It’s only around, like, violence or this feeling of, trans people are coming for our way of life. Or trans people are coming for tradition. Or trans people are coming for sports. Or trans people are coming for public safety, or whatever it is. 

And I wanted to show people that we are human and we are all sorts of different things that are not threatening, and actually very beautiful and amazing and are just as natural as the grass or rain. You know, we’ve been here forever. And I was really excited to get an opportunity to share that information.

There aren’t a lot of nonbinary public figures in the world, and you seem to be aware of that as you’ve been using your platform to really educate people.

Absolutely. I think that for me, being someone who was very mercilessly bullied all throughout my childhood and formative educational years, I’ve always been very moved by this thought of, “If I could make it easier for other people like me or put a little bit of an end to other people’s suffering, it would make my suffering more worth it.” And so I’ve always liked the idea of using what I’ve learned to help make other people’s lives easier.

I love that you said that because my colleague, whose queer son loves you, wanted to know how you feel when it’s a kid who looks to you as a huge inspiration as they’re navigating their own gender and identity.

That’s a really good question. I think sometimes when I see much younger children, like in my standup comedy show, I just feel immediately guilty. I’m like, “Oh my god. I hope I don’t traumatize them, honey, ’cause we are going there tonight.” So in that sense, it can be a little bit harder, but so often I think about Margaret Cho when I think about how I want to live my life as a public figure. I was introduced to her work at a very young age. I was maybe 10 or 11 when I first saw one of her specials on Comedy Central. And she did not hold back. She was herself. She _is_ herself. She’s a full-bodied version of herself. And look at how I turned out. I’m fine. 

So I just feel like I wanna be myself. I don’t wanna totally limit my art or my creativity thinking about, like, “Oh my gosh, is this gonna be too much for someone?” I feel honored that people of any age would look to me and find more self-love, more self-acceptance, more comedy, more joy. More curiosity. So I think I wanna think about that because if I think about, like, “Oh my gosh, I’m a role model for a lot of young people,” and even just success in general, if I thought about it too much, I would become really full of anxiety and unsure of what to do. And so I think in order for me to stay connected to myself and my own vision, I have to not think too much about the way that it’s gonna be received.

Do you have moments in your mind where you’re like, “What would this have meant to little Jonathan growing up in Quincy, Illinois?”

Very much. And sometimes that’s actually another one of those feelings where sometimes I think if I felt that feeling all the way, I know I’d just be in a corner crying because I can’t believe that I’ve been able to do this with my life. But I do hope that other young people seeing me achieve what I’ve been able to achieve in my career won’t find it so shocking when they achieve their dreams. Because for me growing up, I felt like it was unheard of. I didn’t think that I was ever gonna see someone like me be so successful and beloved and accepted and able to create their own projects. It really is such an honor. And I want other people, especially young people, to look at me and think that they can do it too.

Is this your first season on “Queer Eye” identifying openly as nonbinary? 

I came out about being nonbinary in 2019, before we filmed Season 5, but I don’t know if me talking about it in that season made it to air.

I wondered because you are fully yourself this season in a way that I hadn’t really seen before. You’re really embodying your whole self, even down to the fashion. Did you feel differently this season?

Yeah. I think it’s just been such a fast four years, you know? From shooting Season 1 and 2 in Atlanta in 2017, which is when we actually shot that, and then Season 3 and 4, which we shot in 2018, really soon after the show had come out. Season 1 and 2 we shot together. Season 3 and 4, together. And then 5 was its own thing. And then 6 was its own thing. And so each one of those chunks I feel like I was in just a wholly different life situation every single time. Just neck-spraining differences in life situations. So I do think that the season between being married and … definitely this was the first season where I was public about my HIV status. Just very public in all of the things. And so I think that that maybe did lead to just a more overall sense of ease.

In “Getting Curious,” you’ve got some great guest stars, including Rachel Dratch, Lea DeLaria and Michelle Kwan. Who is on your dream guest star list for potential future episodes of the show? 

I mean, once you do have Michelle Kwan, I don’t know where else you’re gonna go from there. I kind of started with the most major one ever! But I mean, I feel like… is Adele ever available? Beyoncé? Michelle Obama, honey? Like, I’m shooting for the stars, but I don’t know. Who knows?

Oprah?

Oh my god, Oprah. Aaah! I don’t know if I could even have Oprah ’cause I think I would literally do that for the whole 22 minutes. Aah! Aaah!

I’d watch it. I would.

The title of that episode: “Can Jonathan Form Words Around Oprah?”

Philemon Chambers, breakout star of Netflix’s ‘Single All the Way’

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Philemon Chambers

It’s the Most Wonderful Time of the Year for Philemon Chambers

Breakout star of Netflix’s ‘Single All the Way’ on being merry about his gay new rom-com role

By Chris Azzopardi

Philemon Chambers can’t believe he’s in a queer Christmas movie. It’s the kind Chambers, recently named “Next Big Thing” by the Hollywood Reporter, could only dream of watching when he was a little queer boy growing up in Compton, California. Then, Black queer characters in mainstream film and TV didn’t exist, and when they finally did, those characters were in the closet or shamed for being out of the closet.

Much has changed since for Chambers, and for the better. Now, the 27-year-old actor, who could previously be seen in small TV roles on “Criminal Minds” and “All Rise,” is the change he always hoped to see in “Single All the Way,” Netflix’s addition to the LGBTQ+ holiday rom-com boom of the last couple of years. Here, queerness is incidental to the sweet, marshmallow center of this love story.

In the film, Chambers plays the adorably likable Nick, who accompanies his roommate and longtime friend, Peter (Michael Urie of “Ugly Betty”), on a trip home for the holidays to see Peter’s family in New Hampshire. It’s an especially kind gesture given Peter has recently learned that his boyfriend is married to a woman. Though Peter’s mom (Kathy Najimy) desperately wants to connect her newly single son with James (Luke Macfarlane), the rest of the family does everything in their power to help Peter and Nick see they’re more than just friends.

Recently, Chambers chatted about the humbling responses he’s received about “Single All the Way” from LGBTQ+ people around the world, how he and Urie developed their chemistry over Zoom, and the message he hopes the movie delivers to young Black queer kids.

This seems like a really big moment for you. Does it feel that way?

It still is a euphoric type of moment. I’m not overwhelmed because it’s a good feeling to finally have this film out ’cause we’ve been talking about it for such a long time. To have it out and to see the response that people are having toward it and the love that it’s garnering — wow, I’m gobsmacked.

What’s it like to be a part of the queer Christmas streaming movie boom that started last year?

It’s nice that these types of stories are being told and that they’re being told authentically by queer [and] gay actors. It’s monumental in that respect because usually they hire a heterosexual actor to portray a gay character. So it’s not an accurate depiction of them, of us. It’s not.

I feel like the films that were released, we needed them at that time. But we really need “Single All the Way.” “Single All the Way” is the first film of its kind to not hold onto the homophobia and not hold onto any negativity. It is pure joy, pure love, pure happiness. And I’m glad that we’re moving in this direction. I can’t wait to see what happens and what comes from it.

Are you and Michael sharing in the splendor of what being a part of this movie feels like right now?

Me and Michael actually had like a 15-, 20-minute conference last night just about how much love we are getting. Everybody is loving Peter and Nick. Everyone is loving the story. And I could not imagine doing this and going through this with anybody else other than Michael Urie. He is such a gem. But yes, we talk literally every day. He’ll respond to me when he wants to respond to me, ’cause I know I’m a little bit annoying.

I watched this with my mom, and it was a powerful thing to be able to watch something with her that’s authentic to my experience as a gay man.

Even my mom, she was like, “Oh, I’m gonna watch this film so many times.” And I was just like, “OK, you’re gonna watch it ’cause I’m in it. We get it.” And she’s just like, “No. It’s just a really good story.” She was just like, “I love that it’s not about the characters being gay. It’s about the character finding love, about the family wanting the character to be in a relationship no matter who it is.”

It’s nice to have something like this where you don’t, again, see that homophobia, you don’t see the negativity behind it. But you see a family rallying behind their son. I feel like that is so monumental to have. I got a Twitter DM yesterday from a gentleman; he lives in a different country. And he was saying where he is, it is a crime to be gay. He watched the film and he had said for the first time he felt like he had been seen. And that gave him hope.

That must mean a tremendous amount to you.

I cried. It means a lot to me that it’s affecting people in the way that it affected me. It’s a beautiful thing to be able to stand in the forefront for people and be that conduit. Like I said in another interview, Nick made me accept myself even more.

In what ways did playing the character make you feel more comfortable with your sexuality?

It’s different when your life is private. It is such a difference when you’re not in [the] public eye, when people really don’t know who you are. It’s easier to live your life how you wanna live your life. You can go out. You can be with your boyfriend or your girlfriend, whatever. But there is a difference when now you are in [the] spotlight and people are trying to figure out who you are, what you do, who you’re dating. I’m like, “Why do you wanna know who I’m dating?” I’m single. I do feel like I’m like Beyoncé — you know, the relationship is private until [points to his finger and motions putting a ring on it]. Just saying.

I just feel like that’s a personal thing. But with accepting myself, I accepted myself. I did. If people would ask, I would tell them. But it was more the liberation that I got from playing Nick, because Nick is how I am with my family. My mom is just like, “OK, is this the boyfriend?” I’m like, “Mom, no. It is not. This is a friend.”

When I got home and I really sat down and got to think about everything, I was like, this is the representation that I needed when I was a kid. And now I’m gonna have to talk to people about this and I’m able to now, versus before it was a touchier subject. I’m like, why not stand in the forefront? Why not be that vessel? Why not be that conduit to embrace fully who I am? I feel like as we get older, the idea of trying to put on for people should go away. I’m just at that point in my life where I genuinely love who I am. I owe a lot of it to Nick, in [the] sense of how he is and how the Harrison family was with him. It just showed that these types of things can be normal.

Did Michael give you tips on navigating being out in the public eye?

Michael gave me more tips on how to navigate the industry in a sense of just being an actor. He has been truly a blessing. So has Jennifer Robertson (as Lisa, Peter’s sister). So has Kathy Najimy (as Carole, Peter’s mom). So has Barry Bostwick (as Harold, Peter’s dad). Even Jennifer Coolidge (who plays Peter’s Aunt Sandy) has given me advice. Rookie amongst veterans.

What advice did Jennifer Coolidge give you? And was there any bend and snap action on set?

You said bend and snap? You talkin’ about [does a little snap]. Jennifer Coolidge, her advice was, “Have fun.” Jennifer Coolidge’s approach to everything — she does not know what she’s gonna do until she does it.

The chemistry between you and Michael seemed so easy.

The thing about being in a pandemic is everything is over Zoom. Me and Michael, we did our chemistry read over Zoom. And we had to give chemistry over Zoom, which is kind of a tough thing to do because it’s hard to sometimes articulate. But honestly, when me and Michael started, everything clicked. It was an automatic thing. It was not forced. We were able to play off of each other over Zoom. I remember getting off of Zoom and going into my sister’s room and being like, “I don’t know what just happened, but I love it.”

What does it mean to you to be a queer person of color playing this character?

I echo this a lot: I am what I needed when I was younger. It’s one of those things where I still have my pinch me moments. To be at the forefront where there is a story out there for young Black men who are maybe questioning themselves or already know who they are, that is positive, that [says] you can come out, you can say these things, you can be yourself, and there is a family out there that will love you, genuinely and unconditionally for who you are — it still is one of those things where I am still taken aback, still humbled. I’m just very, very grateful to have this moment. I text my team every day — I even message Netflix [laughs] — And I’m like, “Thank you so much for allowing me the opportunity to be a vessel and to be a conduit.” It means the world to me.

What about a sequel? There’s been talk, and you can tell me. This is a safe place.

The non-answer answer to that is, Chris, if you must know, Netflix is amazing. And you know, there’s no telling what you’ll see from Nick and Peter.

As much as I am interested in knowing what happens with Nick and Peter in a potential sequel, I am also interested in knowing what it means for them when it comes to Aunt Sandy’s annual pageant in New Hampshire.

You know what? I feel like, if anything, what should happen is Nick and Peter should be in the pageant. We could do a whole little thing. We could act along with Aunt Sandy. I’m just saying.

She’s a tough director. Do you think you have what it takes to be in her pageant?

You know, I can scream. And I can remember my lines.

Chris Azzopardi is the Editorial Director of Pride Source Media Group and Q Syndicate, the national LGBTQ+ wire service. He has interviewed a multitude of superstars, including Cher, Meryl Streep, Mariah Carey and Beyoncé. His work has also appeared in The New York Times, Vanity Fair, GQ and Billboard. Reach him via Twitter @chrisazzopardi.

‘Coming Out Colton’ Bares Not All But A Lot

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Colton Underwood

By Lawrence Ferber

When former star of “The Bachelor” and pro football player Colton Underwood came out on a “Good Morning America” interview in April 2021, there was one question interviewer Robin Roberts didn’t ask: What’s your type?

Fortunately, fellow out athlete Gus Kenworthy presses Underwood for that tidbit — the answer is daddies, y’all! — in the first episode of Netflix’s six episode docuseries “Coming Out Colton.” For those unfamiliar, Underwood’s claim to fame and infamy was his season as the “virgin” Bachelor, subsequent to which he became obsessed with, stalked, and terrorized contestant Cassie Randolph, who ultimately filed a restraining order against him.

To its credit, the series doesn’t absolve Underwood of this behavior — he’ll be read to filth both virtually and to his face by the final episode — but it does go a long way to explaining how he became such a hot closeted mess.

The first four episodes are entirely dedicated to preparation for the “GMA” interview by coming out to family members and friends, seeking advice from Kenworthy and other gay sports figures like NFL trailblazer David Kopay and Esera Tuaolo, and tackling the toxic religious and sports world homophobia that twisted him so profoundly (and led to a suicide attempt).

The first couple of episodes are annoyingly repetitive in their structure (coming out, advice session, rinse, repeat). But what packs a punch is Underwood explaining to a high school coach how the flippant, virulently antigay things he heard from fellow teens and mentors alike caused pain both then and now, seeking ownership from the man for allowing and engaging in that behavior. And a scene in the religion-centric fourth episode (a tedious, fast-forward affair if you consider religion bunk or didn’t suffer that same upbringing), when Underwood seeks acceptance from his pastor via telephone call but instead receives an earful on the sinfulness of homosexuality and gay marriage because “the Bible makes it pretty clear,” legit sucks to watch. A crushed Underwood admits the call creates confusion and doubt even now, and he wonders if the devil’s working through him.

Underwood’s so green about all things LGBTQ+ that Kenworthy is like his Gay 101 teacher, schooling him in terms like PrEP. And it’s cringey to witness the pair visit a gay sex and clothing shop for the first time — when trying on a leather harness, Underwood asks “what’s the point of this?” to which Kenworthy responds, “dancing and vibing” — and meet with a central casting group of white as fuck male cisgays in Nashville for a “coming out party.”

Things get more interesting during episode five, titled “Public,” which focuses on Colton before and after the “GMA” interview, and lifts the veil on what the hell Underwood was thinking during his ‘Bachelor” run.As Kenworthy notes in Ricky Ricardo-speak en route to “GMA,” “You kind of have some explaining to do.” And he does.

Although all reality series are contrived and Underwood is a {ITAL major} reality whore (the Netflix series was announced the day after the “GMA” interview aired), it’s hard to deny the sincerity also at play when Underwood reveals his “Bachelor”-era motive to create a public persona as heterosexual on TV, and forge a relationship with Randolph, so he’d become straight off-camera. That’s so messed up, right?

Randolph reportedly declined to take part in the Netflix series (despite offers of compensation), but other “Bachelor” and “Bachelor”-adjacent personalities join by the final episode, plus there’s a clip from the show. Frankly, “Bachelor” clips and news reports at the show’s front end would have been helpful for context and served as reminder why his coming out carries weight in certain circles (and Twitter). And there’s a ridiculous, cheesy, out-of-nowhere montage of gay trailblazers at the end which essentially places Underwood in the same context — and his coming out of the same impact — with Christine Jorgensen, Matthew Shepard’s murder, and Harvey Milk, which overstates his importance to a ludicrous, tasteless degree.

And who do I want to give my rose to? One of the series’ most memorable inclusions: Pastor Nicole Garcia, the first transgender woman of color to be ordained, part Judge Judy and part Dr. Phil minus the quackery and epic eye-rolling. She serves Underwood (who, spoiler alert, ditches his homophobic pastor and joins the LGBTQ-inclusive Metropolitan Community Church) a dose of seasoned, fierce wisdom and humility we could use more of. Can we get a “Pastor Garcia” season order, please?

New Short Film Brings Light To Transgender Parenting & Surrogacy

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‘Intended Parents’ is a short film about a Black millennial couple, seeking to expand their family through surrogacy. With one partner identifying as a transgender woman, the couple (Alexander Grey as “Robyn” and Lawrence Locke as “Anthony”) find themselves continously educating or being imprisoned by outdated traditions and opinions from loved ones. While the film explores the intersections of love, gender, surrogacy, acceptance, and desperation; the powerful couple aims to deflate multiple negative stigmas as they prepare for the life-alternating roller coaster of fertility and surrogacy. The short film also features Marc Rose, Varinia Justine and Fredrick Irvin as supporting characters.

WATCH OFFICIAL TRAILER HERE

The film is set to release November 25, 2021 nationwide  and can be streamed via Amazon Prime Video.

Emmy Award Winner and co-director, Dr. Louis Deon Jones, states, “Intended Parents strives to normalize surrogacy, love, support and advocacy, for the transgender community.” In addition, the beautifully directed film has been co-directed by Jabari Redd and executive produced by; Taylor Bryan Barr, Andre Davis, Tori Kay, & Shar Jossell.

Unfortunately, 2021 has already seen 45 transgender or gender non-conforming people fatally killed. With the fatal violence disproportionately affecting transgender women of color, particularly Black transgender women, showing films like ‘Intended Parents’ is imperative to dismantle a culture violence and shame against the transgender community.

About Dr. Louis Deon Jones

Dr. Louis Deon Jones is a screenwriter, producer, director and psych doctor originally from Chicago, IL but resides in Los Angeles, CA. Dr. Louis is known for his award winning digital series, Cycles and NoHo: A North Hollywood Story. He is the writer, producer, and director of several short films such as The Good Teacher, A Hopeless Father, Can I Be Me?, Divided, Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner? and Produced the Daytime Emmy Award winning film, ‘The Girl in Apartment 15’ which earned him a Daytime Emmy Award for Outstanding Daytime Fiction Program.

JoJo Siwa Dancing Fearlessly into the Spotlight

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Teen dance sensation JoJo Siwa on coming out, making history on ‘Dancing with the Stars’ and being a role model for queer youth

By Chris Azzopardi

This year, JoJo Siwa made history as the first “Dancing with the Stars” contestant to compete with a same-sex partner. With Jenna Johnson, she performed the Argentine tango to Britney Spears, did the cha-cha to Lady Gaga and busted out her best moves for a sexy queer rumba to Janet Jackson.

And maybe, somehow, you’ve missed all the JoJo buzz, which means you probably also missed her “Grease” foxtrot, but you should know this: JoJo is everywhere right now. That’s great because she’s queer, and we love to see LGBTQ+ visibility on TV, especially on shows like “Dancing with the Stars” where you least expect it.

But JoJo, who made Time magazine’s annual list of the 100 most influential people in the world in 2020, has actually been dancing for years — which is a strange thing to say about someone who’s only 18. JoJo, however, got her start at 9 when she competed on the “Dance Moms” spinoff “Abby’s Ultimate Dance Competition” during its second season in 2013.

JoJo is as beloved on “Dancing with the Stars” as she is on YouTube, where she has amassed over 12 million followers (that number, she tells me, “exploded” after she came out earlier this year, in January). Now she’s teamed up with her mom, Jessalynn Siwa, who’s also her manager (hence, “momager”), for their own Peacock show, “Siwas Dance Pop Revolution.” Over eight episodes, JoJo mentors and choreographs 11 tweens, some of her biggest fans, as they compete to be a part of XOMG Pop, a new pop group. The crowned group will open for JoJo on her 2022 tour.

Recently, JoJo, alongside Jessalynn, spoke about being fearlessly queer, going through a public romance and breakup with ex-girlfriend Kylie Prew, and what it feels like to inspire other LGBTQ+ youth to come out.

How are you bringing diversity and inclusion to “Siwas Dance Pop Revolution”?

JoJo: You know, we wanted to create a girl group that was for everybody and for everybody in the world to be like, “That one’s like me.” And I think that we have made sure that the kids who are in the girl group, and even the kids on the show, have all been able to have their say and make this exactly what they want it to be.

As a queer person yourself, who was the person that made you say, “I see me in you”?

JoJo: I looked up a lot to Freddie Mercury and Lady Gaga. I like what they stand for. I mean, “Born This Way” is literally a gay anthem for everybody in the world and the most genius song ever and, for me, that song hits so home that it’s literally my life.

Did you ever hear from Gaga after lip-syncing “Born This Way” on TikTok?

JoJo: No. [Whimpers.] Don’t mention it, it makes me sad.

Jessalynn: One day, one day.

As somebody who’s representing the queer community on “Dancing with the Stars,” and now with your own dance show, why do you think LGBTQ+ representation is important in shows like these?

JoJo: I think that something that’s really great about today’s day and age is, being gay or being a part of the LGBTQ community is not only accepted, but it’s also celebrated. And I think that every single day it’s less weird and less not typical. Every day it’s becoming a little bit more normal for everybody, and, I mean, being normal is boring. Nobody wants to be normal; everybody wants to be a little different. So I think that it’s something to be celebrated, not scared of.

Growing up in Omaha, Nebraska, which in some people’s mind might be more conservative, was it ever weird for you? What was your experience growing up as a queer person there?

JoJo: Growing up I didn’t know many gay people. I knew a few people on my mom’s side of the family. Her godson is gay, and he was probably one of the first people that I ever knew to be gay. I think being in the dance community, I know of a lot of people there who were gay. It never, ever once for me was wrong. And I think that’s something that you always told me; you were never like, “Oh, that’s weird.”

Jessalynn: No, it’s not.

JoJo: Like, it doesn’t matter. I love the person [who’s like], “If my kid comes out to me as gay, the next thing I’ll do is ask him what he wants for dinner.” I started dating my first girlfriend on January 8th. So what is the difference between January 7th and January 8th for me? There’s none. One, I’m happily in love and dating and have a girlfriend and the other, I’m halfway in love and she’s just not my girlfriend yet. So it’s like, there’s no difference. Nothing changes inside the person that wasn’t already there.

I am so happy to see you live so unabashedly bold as somebody who is in the queer community, but I also wanna shout out to your mom and say it’s equally as important to see a parent be as supportive as you are.

Jessalynn: Thank you. I think kids just wanna feel love from their parents and be accepted and unconditionally able to be themselves no matter what, and that’s what I always tell JoJo: “I love you no matter what.” And I’ve been saying it for 18 years, and I’ll say it for a hundred more.

Jess, what has it been like for you to see her live so boldly, just completely unabashedly out, loud and proud in such a public way?

Jessalynn: You know, I’m so proud of her. I’m so proud of her because she’s so brave. And the world is crazy, and sometimes I’m sure it’s hard to be brave — and it’s hard to be out there and put yourself out there — but she just does it and she loves it, and she’s happy. And it’s really cool, and even as someone that’s older than her, it’s inspiring. To look at somebody so young and so brave… well, we only have one life to live, you know? “Live your best life” is something else we say a lot, and I truly love to see JoJo just living her best life.

JoJo: Thank you.

Jessalynn: You’re welcome.

That’s so sweet. JoJo, what’s your life been like since coming out? You have over 12 million YouTube followers, and I imagine that number surged as soon as you made that statement.

JoJo: Right away it did — it exploded. And I think it’s a thing that a lot of people may’ve been scared of for me, and I was never scared of it myself. I kind of just did [it] and then, if anything, went bad then it went bad and I didn’t care because I was happy, and if I lost everything because of who I love, then so be it.

How aware have you become of the influence that you’re having on LGBTQ+ youth who may not be comfortable with who they are?

JoJo: I think that every kid has a feeling when they’re little and you know how you feel, and you don’t really know how to make what you’re feeling OK. And I think that having somebody to look to, to be like, “Oh, I’m like they are,” is really special, and I love that I get to be that person for a lot of kids.

What advice might you give to a young queer person who’s really struggling with their sexuality?

JoJo: I would say, if you did it a month ago, would you regret it? And depending on the answer, I hope the answer would be no. Because I think sometimes just in the moment it’s scary, but think if you would’ve done it a month ago, would you be OK with it today? And hopefully that answer will be yes. And then I would just say, “So that’s how you’ll feel in one month.”

When it came to coming out publicly, what was the scariest part for you, JoJo, but also for you, Jess?

JoJo: Honestly, there was nothing scary about it for me. I had zero fear of coming out.

Jessalynn: For me, just the unknown. I didn’t ever want to say the wrong thing to JoJo. I don’t mean to say anything wrong or bad; just tell me if I do. And with the pronouns, I’m trying to learn, I’m trying to figure it out.

JoJo: Even somebody like Demi Lovato — there’s somebody who I looked up to since I was a baby, and Demi came out as non-binary this year. Sometimes when we’re talking about Demi, you’ll accidentally say “she.” But Demi actually said, “It’s OK as long as you’re trying.”

This can be personal for a lot of people, but in hopes that maybe this will help other queer youth come out to their parents, would you mind sharing how you came out to your mom?

JoJo: Honestly, I got in the car and my mom said, “You really like her, don’t you?” And this [was] after Ky and I had spent a few nights together. My whole family was there, and it was our last night together, and we kissed. And I said, “Yeah.” And my mom goes, “As a friend or as more than a friend?” And I just said, “As more than a friend.” And my mom then said, “I figured.” [Laughs.]

Jessalynn: [Laughs.] That was like a one-minute conversation.

JoJo: Yeah. It lasted one minute. It was easy. She made it easy on me, and truthfully, I knew my feelings for Ky, but if we didn’t kiss I would’ve just said, “Just as a friend.” Like, it was only because it was so real to me that I was comfortable with fully telling everybody.

What do you remember from that moment, Jess?

Jessalynn: I remember sitting on the Sprinter [Camper] waiting for JoJo to come back and then when she came back and she was crying ’cause she had said goodbye, I knew. And I just remember thinking, “I really need to know.” Like, I just wanted the scoop, but I was afraid. But then before I even knew what I was saying —

JoJo: You were saying it.

Jessalynn: I was saying it. And then it was just simple, and we just carried on. And then you were sad because you were separating and I was like, “Tell her to come to California for the weekend.”

JoJo, you’ve gone through both a public romance and a public breakup. What has that been like for you?

JoJo: Honestly, it’s been a rollercoaster. The good news about it is, I am still best friends with Ky, and she will forever be the first girl that I was ever in love with and the person who made me realize that I was gay and the person who made me so happy, that I was so in love with, that I was head over heels for. And I’m so lucky that even though a romantic relationship ended, our platonic relationship is still there, and our friendship is still there and she’s still one of my best friends.

We talk almost every day still, and she is awesome. So supportive of “Dancing with the Stars” and “Dance Pop.” She loves [the] little kiddos on the show, so they all love her. It’s tricky to navigate because the world always has their own view on things and their own opinion on things, so when the world started speculating [about] things between the two of us, I was checking in with Ky being like, “Hey, you good? You want me to say anything?” So it’s tricky. But one day at a time, and you just keep moving forward.

Dancing with another female partner, Jenna Johnson, on “Dancing with the Stars,” has meant a lot to a lot of queer youth. What has it meant to you?

JoJo: It has meant a lot to me. I think that being paired with another female for the first time ever, first-ever same-sex couple, is such an honor. And I wanna use the word brilliant — it’s so brilliant because love is so accepted and so celebrated that it’s not weird; it’s cool, it’s nice, it’s awesome. And every week Jenna and I are faced with the new challenge of figuring out how to do a new style with two females. But we always get through it, and we always make it out on the other side.

This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity

Chris Azzopardi is the Editorial Director of Pride Source Media Group and Q Syndicate, the national LGBTQ+ wire service. He has interviewed a multitude of superstars, including Cher, Meryl Streep, Mariah Carey and Beyoncé. His work has also appeared in The New York Times, Vanity Fair, GQ and Billboard. Reach him via Twitter @chrisazzopardi.

‘The Eyes of Tammy Faye’ recreates a historic interview with a man living with AIDS

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In the Eyes of Tammy Faye

By Mark King

At the height of their 1980s popularity, Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker were television evangelist royalty, hosting multiple shows and raking in cash from their on-air collection plates. Tammy Faye, however, also had an expansive view of love and acceptance, despite her conservative Christian roots.

She proved it in 1985 when she had a gay man living with AIDS, Steve Pieters, as a guest on her show, Tammy’s House Party. The interview is recreated in the new film The Eyes of Tammy Faye, about the rise and fall of the Bakkers. It premieres September 17 and stars Jessica Chastain as Tammy Faye and Andrew Garfield as Jim.

Pieters spoke with POZ magazine about the original interview, which is available on YouTube, and the new film.

It’s amazing that of all the events in Tammy Faye’s life, the filmmakers chose to include her interview with you.

I’m thrilled that they did. I’m touched and honored.

The film The Eyes of Tammy Faye recreates the original Steve Pieters interview

Tammy Faye Bakker interviews Steve Pieters on her show Tammy’s House Party in 1985.YouTube

It’s ironic that the gay man they found was also a theologian and pastor.

Yes. I was a pastor at the time with [the LGBTQ-affirming] Metropolitan Community Church [MCC], and I had been speaking about living with AIDS for two years or more. I made sure the interview went out live so they couldn’t edit it. It was a kick.

But it was a conservative environment. When did you realize it was friendly ground?

Tammy’s producer had been very friendly. She reassured me that Tammy was proud and excited to be the first to give an affirming interview to a gay man with AIDS.

You also kept bringing the topic back to your faith. When she asked you if you had given women “a chance,” you said God loves you the way you are.

I did that quite deliberately. She had said [before we went on air] that “we don’t talk about Jesus” on this show. And then, of course, we ended up talking about Jesus a lot.

It’s also surprising, frankly, that the person living with AIDS who did that interview in 1985 is still alive to talk about it.

I know! I got sick in 1982 and was diagnosed with GRID [gay-related immunodeficiency, a diagnosis used prior to the discovery of HIV]. They told me I had eight months left to live.

There’s no rhyme or reason to it, is there? Who was empowered, who fought hard, who lived, who died, in those early years.

Yes, absolutely. When I think about all those amazing people who were killed…

What was the initial response from folks to your interview?

Not much. It wasn’t until 1987, when the Reverend Troy Perry played the interview at a general conference for MCC and 1,000 people stood up and cheered, that I got much of a response.

I was so shocked. After that, I traveled for 12 years all over the world, and they always wanted me to show that interview at church events. Everyone wanted to see it.

The trailer for The Eyes of Tammy Faye gives viewers the impression that she was really going rogue with her interview with you. It didn’t please the conservatives in power. She wasn’t sticking to the political script of homosexuals being a threat to Christianity and democracy.

Absolutely. I don’t know if it was because she had a good heart or because she wanted to be known as someone who did something radical. I don’t know. But I’m told this was not the first time she had talked to a gay man.

The new film explores the mystery of Tammy Faye, meaning whether she was just playing a role or whether she was, in fact, an innocent who loved the Lord. If her constant cheerfulness and loving attitude was a persona, she never, ever dropped it.

I know she treated me like a real human being. She was very compassionate. It seemed very sincere.

Her son, Jay Bakker, and I have talked the last couple of years, and he tells me that my interview changed her, and it changed the whole family.

After that interview, she decided that she had a calling to minister to the LGBT community.

She started taking her kids to MCC services and to Pride parades and to hospices to meet people with AIDS who were sick and dying. Jay said it completely changed their attitudes and her direction in ministry.

Was Jim Bakker involved in any of this?

Jay Bakker tells me that his father was all for having the interview done.

They did decide, though, that it should be broadcast on Tammy’s House Party, rather than on their flagship show, The PTL Club [PTL stood for “praise the Lord”]. They thought it would go better if it were on her show.

Now, all of these decades later, the notoriety of doing this interview is all going to come up again. There’s an actor, Randy Havens, playing you in a major Hollywood film. How does that make you feel?

I’m thrilled about it. I got a note from the producer saying that her interview with me figures very prominently in the plot.

Did the producers of the film approach you beforehand to ask your thoughts, then and now, about the interview? Did you even know that the film was happening?

No. I was on Jay Bakker’s podcast, Loosen The Bible Belt, and he told me about the movie.

He said that the actress Jessica Chastain, who plays Tammy Faye, told him that the interview was central to the plot. Jessica decided to do the film because of that interview in the plot.

The producers apparently thought that I was no longer living. Because the interview is on YouTube, I’m considered to be a historic figure, so they don’t have to ask my permission to do it. I wasn’t even aware of it until after the film was in the can.

The film The Eyes of Tammy Faye recreates the original Steve Pieters interview

Steve Pieters Courtesy of Steve Pieters

What are your apprehensions?

There is a little bit of fear in me that this is what’s going to be the lead in my obituary.

This interview and now this film is what I’m going to be remembered for, not that I survived AIDS or was a director of AIDS ministries but that I was that gay pastor with AIDS who did that interview. Which is OK, I could be remembered for a lot worse.

To have represented a community so well on a national television show that became kind of infamous? That’s a great lead for anyone’s obituary. And the interview eventually became your calling card. Look at all the great work you were able to do as a result of that moment. It accelerated your career in advocacy as well as your ministry.

It definitely raised my profile. And I’ve had people over the years come up to me and say that that interview saved their life or that they never realized they could be gay and Christian. I had one person tell me that he was seriously contemplating suicide, and the interview changed his mind.

It is a fascinating slice of HIV/AIDS history. It deserves to be remembered. And for what it meant for representation of people living with HIV and the marvelous work it helped you do and for the lives it changed, it deserves to be the lead in your obituary—if that turns out to be the case.

That’s true. It was a big deal. And I didn’t even know it at the time.

Why Tracey Scott Wilson Deserves Your Respect

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Tracey Scott Wilson

How the ‘Respect’ screenwriter’s sexual identity influenced her telling of Aretha’s story
By Chris Azzopardi

Aretha Franklin’s journey to self-discovery is seen through the lens of openly lesbian screenwriter Tracey Scott Wilson in “Respect,” the biopic starring Jennifer Hudson as Detroit’s own Queen of Soul. In director Liesl Tommy’s film, Wilson focuses on Franklin’s tumultuous path to the top, one that involved many years of fighting for personal and professional agency. 

During her formative years, Aretha was bound to the controlling men in her life, namely her first husband, Ted White, and father, C.L. Franklin. That is, until she realized she didn’t have to be. The movie’s message — find your own voice — is one Wilson is very familiar with. After all, she’s lesbian. And, like Aretha, a preacher’s daughter. 

From Brooklyn, the screenwriter spoke about how being part of the LGBTQ+ community influenced her script, why Aretha isn’t considered a gay icon, and how she wants the Queen’s song “Ain’t No Way” to be reclaimed as the gay anthem she says it is. 

There are so many ways to tell Aretha’s story. How do you think your identity helped shape the narrative direction of the story as you chose to tell it?

That’s such a great question and something that no one has ever asked me. I didn’t know that Carolyn [Aretha’s younger sister] was a lesbian and so, when I found that out, that was just huge. I was like, “Wow. I wonder what would’ve happened had I known that when I was a kid.” 

So, reading about Aretha’s family and the uniqueness of circumstances. And, also, my father was a minister. Obviously not as big as C.L., but I was very sort of tuned into the preacher’s kid part of me because, whenever you’re a preacher’s kid, you have to find your own identity outside of your parents. It can be so overwhelming. So I was just thinking about Carolyn and being a preacher’s kid, with a world-famous father at that. And then also, as a gay person, to decide you’re going to live your truth is just remarkable. Aretha, you know, never questioned [it]. They completely accepted that.

So was Carolyn your inroad to this story?

I think that Aretha was still the inroad, but because of her and Erma [Aretha’s elder sister], they were really important because I realized how much they influenced her, and vice versa. Their relationship was very formative to her. And whenever I was thinking about Aretha, I was thinking about where her sisters were at that moment.

Of course there’s gay gospel musician and Aretha collaborator James Cleveland, played by Tituss Burgess in the movie. Do you think Aretha coming out of her shell and harnessing her inner power had anything to do with the LGBTQ+ people around her, like Carolyn and James? 

I actually do believe that. James Cleveland would have these parties and there were just gay people there, where it was sort of unspoken. Singers in the Black churches, ministers of music…

I think that her father, from all of my research, was just never sort of judgmental about that. I mean, I think it was different when it came to his own daughter. But I do think that seeing so many people — women, gay men — just live their truest under her father’s roof really did help her later on, in terms of just declaring her own identity. 

Why do you think Aretha’s contemporaries, like Diana Ross and Patti LaBelle, are considered gay icons but Aretha is rarely referred to as one? 

I think that the reason she hasn’t traditionally fallen into that category is because of her relationship with the church. For so many gay people, the church has been a source of pain. And for Aretha, it was a source of pain, but also her greatest source of inspiration. I think that’s why she wasn’t a gay icon. You know, “Amazing Grace” is her best-selling album [Note: It’s also the best selling gospel album of all time, period]. Whereas Patti LaBelle grew up in the church as well, but musically she wasn’t as connected to it. Same thing as Diana Ross. Diana Ross, growing up in the Motown scene, she didn’t have anything to do with that. So, I think that’s the unintended barrier, because she definitely had all of the other qualities these women had. The larger-than-life persona, the feminism…

And the shade. The shade was just so good.

The shade. Oh my god.

To me, a lot of things that Aretha had done in her career fall into the gay icon category: the over-the-top exuberance, the voice, the sass, the shade.  

Carolyn, she wrote “Ain’t No Way” to be… it’s a gay anthem. When you look at those lyrics, it was so clear. You know what she’s talking about.

Do you think Aretha knew?

Oh, absolutely. I think the lyrics spoke to her as well, but her singing there was also an acknowledgement of her sister. [Aretha] was very private, so she didn’t talk about her life and she certainly wasn’t going to talk about her sister’s private life. I think if it would have been known, she would’ve been right up there with Cher. 

I can’t find a lot of examples of Aretha actually openly talking about her LGBTQ+ fanbase.

I don’t think that was because of any type of shame. I just think that she was so intensely private that any opening up of that conversation would’ve meant talking about Carolyn. It would’ve meant talking about James Cleveland. It would’ve meant talking about her childhood. And she just didn’t want to. 

It sounds like Aretha’s relationship with Carolyn gave you some insight into how Aretha felt about the community. 

James Cleveland as well. You can see from “Amazing Grace” how close they were, growing up at the house with him. He was obviously very open about it. 

Because of the movie, now I hear “Ain’t No Way” in a brand new queer light. It really does sound like a gay anthem. 

Yeah, it really is. I hope it gets reclaimed. Because of just time, I wasn’t able to talk about Carolyn being a lesbian in the movie. There were a couple of scenes where I sort of laid it out. They had conversations, but it had to be cut. But I just hope it gets reclaimed for the anthem that it is.

Can you talk about the scenes that didn’t make the cut? 

There’s a scene where Erma and Aretha were talking with Carolyn, and Carolyn is feeling sorry about somebody she dated that was crazy [laughs]. It was a scene where Aretha and Erma were talking to Carolyn, and they were asking her about someone she had previously dated and Carolyn was basically saying, “Don’t. Please. Don’t ever mention that girl’s name again.” And there was another scene where she started wrestling with who she was interested in. 

Maybe the follow-up you write is Carolyn’s story.

Wouldn’t that be something? Wouldn’t it? Carolyn and James’s story.
Chris Azzopardi is the Editorial Director of Pride Source Media Group and Q Syndicate, the national LGBTQ+ wire service. He has interviewed a multitude of superstars, including Cher, Meryl Streep, Mariah Carey and Beyoncé. His work has also appeared in The New York Times, Vanity Fair, GQ and Billboard. Reach him via Twitter @chrisazzopardi.

OUTProfiles: Will Roscoe and the Many Ways to be Queer

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Author Will Roscoe

Will Roscoe is a prolific writer who has influenced many LGBTQ people by exploring the ways other cultures express, and often celebrate different genders and sexualities.

Roscoe has been active in the the Gay movement since 1975, when he helped found Lambda, the first Gay/Lesbian organization in Montana. The following year, he served an intern at the National Gay Task Force, and in 1977, as coordinator of the Gay People’s Alliance at the University of Oregon, he spearheaded the formation of the Oregon Gay Alliance, a statewide coalition of Gay/Lesbian groups. In 1978, he completed an internship at the Pacific Center for Human Growth in Berkeley, where he coordinated a successful campaign to win United Way funding, the first Lesbian/Gay social service agency in the country to do so. He also served as voter registration coordinator for the No on 6 campaign in San Francisco (the Briggs initiative), registering over 10,000 new voters.

In 1979, he attended the first radical faerie gathering in Arizona, where he met Harry Hay, and became involved in efforts that led to the founding of Nomenus, which today operates a retreat in Southern Oregon. In 1980, with Tede Mathews and other local artists he organized “Mainstream Exiles: a Lesbian and Gay Men’s Cultural Festival” and between 1980 and 1982, he published and edited with Bradley Rose Vortex: A Journal of New Vision. In 1984, he became Project Coordinator for the Gay American Indians History Project and edited Living the Spirit, A Gay American Indian Anthology (Stonewall Inn Editions).

Roscoe’s research on the Native American berdache or two-spirit tradition has appeared in numerous journals and publications. His book, The Zuni Man-Woman (University of New Mexico Press), received the Margaret Mead Award of the American Anthropological Association and a Lambda Literary Award. He has since published Queer Spiritss: A Gay Men’s Myth Book (Beacon) and edited Radically Gay : Gay Liberation in the Words of Its Founder (Beacon) by Harry Hay. He is also co-editor of Islamic Homosexualities: Culture, History, and Literature (New York University Press) and Boy-Wives and Female Husbands: Studies in African Homosexualities (St. Martin’s, 1998). In 1998 he publishedChanging Ones: Third and Fourth Genders in Native North America (St. Martin’s, 1998) a comprehensive series of studies of two-spirit people and traditions. His most recent book, Jesus and the Shamanic Tradition of Same-Sex Love (Suspect Thoughts, 2004) received a Lambda Literary Award for best work in religion/spirituality.

Roscoe holds a Ph.D. in History of Consciousness from the University of California, Santa Cruz. He has taught in Anthropology, Native American Studies, and American Studies at UC/Santa Cruz, San Francisco State University, UC/Berkeley, the California Institute of Integral Studies, and Dominican College, and he is adjunct faculty for the Institute for Transpersonal Psychology. From 1991-1995 he was an affiliated scholar with the Institute for Research on Women and Gender at Stanford University.

In 2003, he received a Monette-Horowitz Achievement Award for research and scholarship combatting homophobia.

adapted from www.willsworld.org